This entry is part 122 of 124 in the series CommanderCast

Hello everyone and welcome to the real CommanderCast Episode 281! We’re your weekly source for Community, Strategy, and Technology, hosted on MTGcast.com and our homesite: CommanderCast.com! This week Mark and Adam are over  the Off Color Deck ideas an moving on…. to just straight hating a color. I’m talking about straight hating a color  (looking at you island lovers out there ). But first the guys go over some recent news about the banned list.

All this and more and all you have to do is click the IB!!!

Ib Download

 

 

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CommanderCast Episode 281

Posted: May 1, 2017

 

Intros:

 

Adam

 

Mark

 

Check out our YouTube channel and Rachel’s “Alpha Project.”

 

Keep up with the conversation on Facebook

 

Community:

 

Ban list update

 

Next week: What’s your favorite aspect of Magic’s history?

 

Worth listening: Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy, ep. 252: The History of Magic: The Gathering, where author Titus Chalk discusses his new book Generation Decks: The Unofficial History of Gaming Phenomenon Magic: The Gathering.

 

Strategy:  

 

What is color hate?

 

Should you play?

  • Feels targeted
  • Do you sideboard?
  • Is there a lot of variance in opponents?
  • You are weak to a limited color palette or strats

 

Our opinions on the applicability of color hate, should you play these cards.

 

If you play color hate, what kind should you play?

 

Three categories

  • Direct pain or gain from colors
  • Land type hate
  • Protection from color

 

Choosing the best ones

  • Best to play is not completely dead in hand otherwise
  • Better if effects many players
  • Better if you choose the color
  • Better if able to change the text or type (i.e, Sleight of Mind or Distorting Lens)
  • Better if against all colors except one (i.e., Inundate)

 

Color hate

 

Land type hate

 

Technology:

 

Adam’s – spinal villain, jovial evil+Alliance of arms, volcanic eruption, Cinder cloud

 

Mark’s – All is Dust, Kormus Bell/Quicksilver Fountain, Deepwood Elder/Gaea’s Liege

 

Outtro/Contacts:

 

CommanderCast  – Email: commandercast(at)gmail(dot)com // twitter: (at)CommanderCast

 

Rachel – Email: wiehernandez(at)gmail(dot)com // twitter: (at)Blueram1409

 

Calvin – Email: captainredzone(at)gmail(dot)com  // twitter: (at)CaptainRedZone

 

Mark – Email: mahlerma(at)gmail(dot)com

 

Adam – (at)squire9999 // (at)thetrinisphere

 

Be sure to check out our CommanderCast Facebook page.

 

And a big thanks to everyone here at the CommanderCast Network. We’ll see you next week with more community, strategy, and technology. Until then, LET’S GET IT!

Series Navigation<< CommanderCast Ep 280 – Off-Color Green StaxCommanderCast Ep 282 – Old Men Bitch About Cards >>
  • Josh Jurgensen

    I understand why the recent unban seems strong – but I don’t think it is. To better understand my viewpoint, I think we need to consider the following:

    Use Case – There’s two ways to use this: The scary way (immediate combo) and the fair way (value). I think that most of the concern over this card is it’s potential use in combo decks – but here’s the thing: It’s not doing anything better than what’s already being done in the format. People at my Friday group argued “How can you say that? It’s way better than ‘lark.” It might be better than reveillark in some cases – but is it better than Tooth and Nail? Decks that want to be searching out their dorks and dumping them into play are already ending games with this. The hulk does cost a little bit less than TNN, but you need a sac outlet ready to go the moment you cast it if you’re using it for competitive purposes. You start factoring in all of the various pieces of some of these combos and you looking at 5 or more cards. You’re also looking at a very static combo that usually only fetches one specific set of combo elements. If players win that way enough, it’s usually going to get boring to the group. Lastly – it’s a *dies* trigger (usually the worst kind) – and not a ETB or LTB trigger. If it’s stolen, blanked (sudden spoiling), exiled, or the dies trigger doesn’t happen because of a stifle or Rest In Peace, then the card is successfully dealt with.

    Context: Simply put, players that are most likely to be abusing this are already the players that people are gunning for anyway. I have always been in favor of allowing more cards in if their sole purpose is as a combo enabler. If it’s fun for everyone, then there’s usually no problem – otherwise It forces playgroups to either evolve and deal with the threat, to formally decide that they want to avoid a group of cards or playstyle, or to dissolve. Hopefully not the latter, but I’m sure we’ve all seen it.

    Hulk lets the Johnnies out there combo even harder – and to me, that’s fine. Let ’em. It makes them easier to spot. Hulk combo could be the final straw that gets some groups to finally say something to the offending player.

    Personally, I’ll not be including any combo pieces specifically for the Hulk combo.

    Also, you were thinking of *Rune* of Protection Lands (the Cycling one)

    • ggodo

      New job is less podcast friendly, so I haven’t had time to list to the cast for a couple weeks, but unbanning Hulk in Commander is a little insane. Like, Sneak Attack that guy in, go infinite off of one red mana.

      Like, think of a Jund Sacrifice themed deck. Like Prossh, or something. They’re already going to have am active sac outlet because it’s what they do anyway. Now they can Sneak Attack in a Hulk feed it to Vsicera Seer, get Melira and Redcap and go nuts! And that’s just what I thought of in first 10 minutes after the announcement. This is a really odd choice, and one that I want to see play out, but no one, NO ONE is playing Protean Hulk for value. The Hulk is going to be cheated in, die, and end the game immediately.

      • Josh Jurgensen

        I just don’t see it being a huge problem. In games where it wins before the rest of the table is ready, the table will usually adapt or tell the hulk player to take a hike.

        It’s $20-30 until it sees a reprint and it’s pretty fragile and clunky for a combo. I think that the majority of decks with the resources to acquire one of these and the inclination to play combo are already playing other (often more resilient) combos. However one neat bit is that like Reveillark, it’s an enabler for combos in response to a split second spell.

        For the record, I’ve been a huge proponent of the unbannings of Kokusho, Metalworker, Staff of Domination, this and Recurring Nightmare. So far, the ones who’ve been unbanned haven’t ruined the format. I think hulk will – in time – be fine.

        • ggodo

          I think a lot of those cards you mentioned are less resilient combos than Hulk. Honestly I think Hulk is a more problematic tutor/combo than Reivellark, or whatever, because Hulk finds all those other creature combos. if you’re half way to combo, Hulk gets you the rest of the way. if you’re nowhere near going off, Hulk gets you the rest of the way. if your deck has any loop that relies on creatures the Hulk acts as a recur-able tutor for your entire combo. Heck, Green Sun’s Zenith now gets your entire combo.

          I know in your world you can tell the hulk player to take a hike, but the social contract isn’t that strong everywhere. That’s why there’s a banned list. It’s a tool to help strengthen that social contract. I think this is a blow to that.

          That said, I super hope this isn’t that bad. I remember when it first came out and Flash Hulk was all the rage, and I know that there’s nothing quite as easy as Flash, but there’s still so many ways to cheat the Hulk in, and so many more pieces to fetch to go infinite, I’m still having a hard time seeing how this is not a problem. I dunno, I just moved, I guess I’ll see in the new meta.

  • Jeremy Parsons

    On old packs: Before Mirage block M:TG Packs used a flimsy white plastic which you could peek through like some sleeve backs. You could kind of shift the cards within the pack to review the cards within. This is why it’s safer to buy a sealed box of some sort of older cards than single booster packs unless you’re darned sure of the booster pack origins.

    There’s a class of cards that are enabled by foe’s colors as well. For instance Carpet of Flowers can net a lot of mana vs a heavy blue player. And Reap is an absolutely ludicrous version of regrowth as a 1G Instant that can return as many cards as an opponent controls black permanents. (Sadly Reap is badly broken on MTG). On the flip side, less expensive mana bases can render a player immune to some hate. For instance, in a recent game Thalia wasn’t attacking into my Reaper King deck to steal choice artifacts because the deck has only two cards that count as Islands so I could easily block her.

    So many nostalgia things. I still have my glass beads and Scrye miniatures counter, but don’t use them much. The number of packs of The Dark I traded in at a store to obtain a fabled Khabal Ghoul from Arabian Nights. My Anti-red deck that used Chaos Lace with Beasts of Bogardon and Ivory Guardians to cause havok and answer Mazes of Ith. When I realized that Flamewhip actually gave the enchanted creature the Tim ability. The day I opened Gaea’s Blessing and things clicked in my head; I can finally play my Deep Spawn, thus beginning my love affair with big decks.

    • Eshed

      I LOVE Deep Spawn! U/B self-mill combo deck uses it as a top curve beater (because I’d rather win with a giant lobster than the combo). My favorite part of deckbuilding has always been overcoming drawbacks.

      • Jeremy Parsons

        My original Deep Spawn deck was U/G with loads of elves in order to hit that 8 mana. It clicked in at 90 cards. As time went on it became the go to deck for any cards too strange or awkward for other decks. And kept working as long as I’d add a little more mana to it. By the time I heard of the 5-color format (250 card decks with at least 20 cards of each color) I only needed to add 25 cards to make it fit the format.

  • Donny Whipple

    Mark’s not crazy, there is a Rune of Protection: Lands. Adam is also correct, it only protects you from damage, which makes it completely horrible. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=11698

  • Mark Mahler

    Big thanks to Josh and Donny for assuring me that dementia hasn’t completely set in yet. Oh you Runes of Protection…

    I’ve seen people make Josh’s argument in support of Combo Hulk’s unbanning around the interwebs this week, but I just can’t come around to that side yet. Maybe I’m just being a cranky old man.

    • ggodo

      As a cranky old man, I can relate.

  • Kinghonkey

    I attempted to build a “fair” Zur deck that built off the old deck idea of Sleight Knight. It was a tribal knights deck with Zur at the head fetching up anthem effects and enchantments that changed the color protection and color hosing abilities of the knights. Like most of my decks, it wasn’t great, but it was kind of fun. I think that’s probably the limit of color hate I have ever run.

    The unbanning of Hulk won’t really effect me all that much. I’m the only person in my playgroup that owns any, and he doesn’t particularly have a home in any of my decks. I see the the possibility of abuse, and have abused the Hulk back when I thought infinite combos were silly fun, but seeing as my playgroup is the roughly the same 8-10 guys, we police our own. I would guess if you play a lot of competitive or play online or in public play groups, let the rules committee know how often you’re seeing Protean and what degenerate plays are breaking the “spirit of the format”. Tweet at them, harass Sheldon Menery like your name is Adam.

    My favorite aspect of Magic’s history is just how much the game has changed, but is still recognizable to its veterans. I love that old guys, like the hosts and I, have been playing longer than some newer players have been alive, yet we can still share in the game like it’s an established “acceptable” past time like watching baseball. We can talk about how it’s changed, the things we’ve seen, cards that used to be the bomb and are now severely outclassed, or cards that were always broken and still make people wonder what the hell Wizards was thinking. I like being able to catch references to older cards, subtle nods and inside jokes that make me feel like I’m part of a loose community of people. I also like seeing how the dynamic of the player population has changed. No longer is it all high school and college-aged, straight, cis-gender, white, geeky guys (of which I was definitely one). There are more women playing than ever before, more players playing internationally, more players of different races, mothers, fathers and kids. The change in target markets has even changed the art and aesthetics. It used to be more (but not all) of the standard fantasy tropes of bare-chested dudes, mustachioed wizards and some bikini chain-mail ladies. The fact that we have a non-binary planeswalker, a transgender legend, an openly gay interracial couple and major characters from all different walks of life and psuedo-fantasy ethnicities, is proof of how far it’s come in nearly 25 years. I know it’s not on par with Brown V. Board of Education, but it’s more than what I would expect from pretty pieces of cardboard.

  • Kinghonkey

    I attempted to build a “fair” Zur deck that built off the old deck idea of Sleight Knight. It was a tribal knights deck with Zur at the head fetching up anthem effects and enchantments that changed the color protection and color hosing abilities of the knights. Like most of my decks, it wasn’t great, but it was kind of fun. I think that’s probably the limit of color hate I have ever run.
    The unbanning of Hulk won’t really effect me all that much. I’m the only person in my playgroup that owns any, and he doesn’t particularly have a home in any of my decks. I see the the possibility of abuse, and have abused the Hulk back when I thought infinite combos were silly fun, but seeing as my playgroup is the roughly the same 8-10 guys, we police our own. I would guess if you play a lot of competitive or play online or in public play groups, let the rules committee know how often you’re seeing Protean and what degenerate plays are breaking the “spirit of the format”. Tweet at them, harass Sheldon Menery like your name is Adam.
    My favorite aspect of Magic’s history is just how much the game has changed, but is still recognizable to its veterans. I love that old guys, like the hosts and I, have been playing longer than some newer players have been alive, yet we can still share in the game like it’s an established “acceptable” past time like watching baseball. We can talk about how it’s changed, the things we’ve seen, cards that used to be the bomb and are now severely outclassed, or cards that were always broken and still make people wonder what the hell Wizards was thinking. I like being able to catch references to older cards, subtle nods and inside jokes that make me feel like I’m part of a loose community of people. I also like seeing how the dynamic of the player population has changed. No longer is it all high school and college-aged, straight, cis-gender, white, geeky guys (of which I was definitely one). There are more women playing than ever before, more players playing internationally, more players of different races, mothers, fathers and kids. The change in target markets has even changed the art and aesthetics. It used to be more (but not all) of the standard fantasy tropes of bare-chested dudes, mustachioed wizards and some bikini chain-mail ladies. The fact that we have a non-binary planeswalker, a transgender legend, an openly gay interracial couple and major characters from all different walks of life and psuedo-fantasy ethnicities, is proof of how far it’s come in nearly 25 years. I know it’s not on par with Brown V. Board of Education, but it’s more than what I would expect from pretty pieces of cardboard.

  • Kinghonkey

    I attempted to build a “fair” Zur deck that built off the old deck idea of Sleight Knight. It was a tribal knights deck with Zur at the head fetching up anthem effects and enchantments that changed the color protection and color hosing abilities of the knights. Like most of my decks, it wasn’t great, but it was kind of fun. I think that’s probably the limit of color hate I have ever run.
    The unbanning of Hulk won’t really effect me all that much. I’m the only person in my playgroup that owns any, and he doesn’t particularly have a home in any of my decks. I see the the possibility of abuse, and have abused the Hulk back when I thought infinite combos were silly fun, but seeing as my playgroup is the roughly the same 8-10 guys, we police our own. I would guess if you play a lot of competitive or play online or in public play groups, let the rules committee know how often you’re seeing Protean and what degenerate plays are breaking the “spirit of the format”. Tweet at them, harass Sheldon Menery like your name is Adam.
    My favorite aspect of Magic’s history is just how much the game has changed, but is still recognizable to its veterans. I love that old guys, like the hosts and I, have been playing longer than some newer players have been alive, yet we can still share in the game like it’s an established “acceptable” past time like watching baseball. We can talk about how it’s changed, the things we’ve seen, cards that used to be the bomb and are now severely outclassed, or cards that were always broken and still make people wonder what the hell Wizards was thinking. I like being able to catch references to older cards, subtle nods and inside jokes that make me feel like I’m part of a loose community of people. I also like seeing how the dynamic of the player population has changed. No longer is it all high school and college-aged, straight, cis-gender, white, geeky guys (of which I was definitely one). There are more women playing than ever before, more players playing internationally, more players of different races, mothers, fathers and kids. The change in target markets has even changed the art and aesthetics. It used to be more (but not all) of the standard fantasy tropes of bare-chested dudes, mustachioed wizards and some bikini chain-mail ladies. The fact that we have a non-binary planeswalker, a transgender legend, an openly gay interracial couple and major characters from all different walks of life and psuedo-fantasy ethnicities, is proof of how far it’s come in nearly 25 years. I know it’s not on par with Brown V. Board of Education, but it’s more than what I would expect from pretty pieces of cardboard.