This entry is part 302 of 318 in the series CommanderCast

Hello everyone and welcome to CommanderCast Episode 290! We’re your weekly source for Community, Strategy, and Technology, hosted on MTGcast.com and our homesite: CommanderCast.com! This week Mark and Adam are talking all about tiers, baby! For those of you not in the know, tiers are kind of a ranking system with 1 being the highest and everything else falling into a lower tier. Not saying one is better than the other, but the higher the tier the more proficient and cut-throat the deck. This is a great way to keep your playgroup all on the same level of game play. If your group is more casual and based on fun, you may want to play a lower tier deck. But if you’re trying to be the best (like no one ever was) a higher tier meta might be what you seek. So if you’re down with that all you have to do is click the IB!!!

 

Ib Download

 

 

 

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CommanderCast Episode 290

Posted: July 17, 2017

 

Intros:

 

Adam

 

Mark

 

Community Question: Any interest in starting a page listing community member’s TappedOut decks?

 

Keep up with the conversation on Facebook & Twitter.

 

Community:

 

 

“The Line”: What separates a Tier 1 deck from a Tier 2 (or Tier 2 from a Tier 3, etc.) ?

 

Our strictly science-based, totally objective rankings:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strategy:  

 

How do you move your deck up (or down) a tier in Commander? Is there a specific time or reason to do so?

 

  • How do you use this information?
  • Optimize vs. De-optimize for power
  • Movin’ On Up:
    • More tutors
    • More optimal removal
    • More instant speed interactions
    • EDH rec
    • Deck primers
  • Slowin’ It Down:
    • Remove key combo pieces
    • Build a different deck
    • Fewer tutors, more card draw
    • Other 99

 

Technology:

 

Return of an old segment: “Bad Cards We Love”

 

Adam – Ondu Giant, Gate to Phyrexia, Chronatog

 

Mark – Stream of Acid, Skirsdag High Priest, Gideon’s Avenger

 

Outtro/Contacts:

 

CommanderCast  – Email: commandercast(at)gmail(dot)com // twitter: (at)CommanderCast

 

Rachel – Email: wiehernandez(at)gmail(dot)com // twitter: (at)Blueram1409

 

Calvin – Email: captainredzone(at)gmail(dot)com  // twitter: (at)CaptainRedZone

 

Mark – Email: mahlerma(at)gmail(dot)com

 

Adam – (at)squire9999 // (at)thetrinisphere

 

Be sure to check out our CommanderCast Facebook page.

 

And a big thanks to everyone here at the CommanderCast Network. We’ll see you next week with more community, strategy, and technology. Until then, LET’S GET IT!

Series Navigation<< CommanderCast Ep 289 – Netdecks for Everyone!CommanderCast Ep 291 – I’d Tap That >>
  • Josh Jurgensen

    I’m in strong agreement about TappedOut not being a decent source of aggregate info – there’s no barrier to posting untested half-thought-out lists. If no one remembers my old Something for Everybody article series, I’m a huge fan of going deep in forgotten gems in my decks – and EDHRec is practically useless for that purpose. If anything, it tells you what not to play in your new spicy brew.

    I’ve been a member of MTGSalvation since it was MTGNews – and I’ve been active in their EDH forums since 2010. I’m a big advocate of the utility of these forums (particularly the curated primers). In a way, EDHRec is a wide net and MTGSalvation is a deep, focused discussion. Both serve separate purposes – if someone were theorycrafting a concept before building, I’d hope they would use EDHRec to flesh out the general idea before visiting the deep discussions in the forums to do some fine tuning.

    I think the reality is more that if they use any web resources for construction research that more people than should solely rely on EDHREC.

  • Eshed

    I think collecting names for our TappedOut accounts is a good idea. It’s a way to connect with other listeners, and discuss changes to our decks with EDH community members who have more in common with us than just our hobby. I keep it simple and go by my first name, Eshed. (It’s pronounced with both E’s the same, like “Fresh Dead.” ESH-ed.) http://tappedout.net/users/Eshed/

  • Jeremy Parsons

    Heh. I’ve got some of my decks listed on Tapped Out under Brefin.

    Also amusing for Mark to be speaking of the Red Kirin. I just made an Alesha Spirit Tribal deck online. Black Kirin is fine. White Kirin is strong. And Red Kirin is the worst threaten effect ever? No untap, no haste? You get most of the effect just from running the spirit that prevents a creature from blocking when you cast a spirit spell. Oif.

    As for trying to get your deck to match your opponent’s power level, as long as it’s not too huge a difference, there’s always playing clones and inherently limiting or boosting yourself to your opponent’s options.

    • Adam Traas

      I like the clone balancing concept.

  • Ward Donovan

    (This is Kinghonkey, posting as a guest because Disqus keeps blocking my comments as spam.)

    Fun episode, I loved hearing Adam’s seething hatred towards the misuse of data. The nerve it must have struck ran deep. 😉

    I think the concept of true top tier 1 decks really goes against a lot of what EDH was formed around. If you have no interaction with the other players aside from defending your master plan, if you have complete consistency each game, if you’re playing _only_ to win, then you, my friend, are what is wrong with the format (to borrow a phrase.). I don’t think that’s why a lot of us got into Commander, not me anyway.

    That said, my most vicious and competitive deck is just that. Heartless Hidetsugu is by no means tier one, yet the way I have it built, I can end the game anywhere between 1st-4th turn. Of course, I sometimes consider a win killing myself and everyone else too. If we all die at the same time, did I _really_ lose? I play that deck maybe twice a year. The majority of my decks are probably tier 3, if I had to give them a rank. There are a couple I rarely bring out because they tend to kill very quickly and most in my playgroup can’t match my card pool. I do play Prossh without Food Chain, because I shy away from those kind of combos…I guess I’m that guy, but t’s still plenty deadly without it. Some people refuse to play against my Vish Kal deck as well.

    But, I also play derpy shit like Ephara where I give myself 4 upkeeps, or creatureless Progenitus, where everything aside from mana rocks costs 7 mana or more.

    And that’s the cool thing about EDH, trying to tweek your deck to make it as interesting as it can be, or taking a turd of a general and finding all of the tech to make it perform. I think it’s been mentioned on this cast back in the day, but generals are very much tiered like fighting games, or mobas, or first person shooters. The play style caters to the individual tastes and predilections and even the crappiest choice can sometimes do amazing things in the right situation. In Street Fighter parlance, Ryu will always be tier one, same goes for Lucio in Overwatch (barring any kind of nerfing), but I’m going to play E. Honda because I’ve played him since I was 13, and we share body types. I think that might be the perfect nerdy-ass analogy for my play style and abilities within Magic. I’ve been paying for so long and I’m good and have a depth and breadth of knowledge and experience, but I would much rather spam the punch button and Hundred Hand Slap some fools instead of learning unblockable combos or running tier one decks. I might snap pick Junkrat because I like his stupid style of explosions, explosions, explosions. When I succeed with one of those characters, that’s all I need. I do the same thing in EDH. I have deep, abiding, two-decade-long love for Dakkon Blackblade, even though he’s unimpressive when compared to other Esper generals. If I’m able to pull out a W, or make an impressive showing, that’s all that matters. Tiers be damned.

    This is running long. My stupid cards that I love are things like Flaring Pain and Insult//Injury, or creatures like Butcher Orgg. I love things that stop damage prevention, even if they’re not good. I love red, I love anti-fog tech. I have bought seven copies of Insult//Injury so far.

    I would definitely be down to share ideas and comments on Tapped Out. Mark was right, I go by Kinghonkey there as well.

  • Kinghonkey

    Fun episode, I loved hearing Adam’s seething hatred towards the misuse of data. The nerve it must have struck ran deep. 😉

    I think the concept of true top tier 1 decks really goes against a lot of what EDH was formed around. If you have no interaction with the other players aside from defending your master plan, if you have complete consistency each game, if you’re playing _only_ to win, then you, my friend, are what is wrong with the format (to borrow a phrase.). I don’t think that’s why a lot of us got into Commander, not me anyway.

    That said, my most vicious and competitive deck is just that. Heartless Hidetsugu is by no means tier one, yet the way I have it built, I can end the game anywhere between 1st-4th turn. Of course, I sometimes consider a win killing myself and everyone else too. If we all die at the same time, did I _really_ lose? I play that deck maybe twice a year. The majority of my decks are probably tier 3, if I had to give them a rank. There are a couple I rarely bring out because they tend to kill very quickly and most in my playgroup can’t match my card pool. I do play Prossh without Food Chain, because I shy away from those kind of combos…I guess I’m that guy, but t’s still plenty deadly without it. Some people refuse to play against my Vish Kal deck as well.

    But, I also play derpy shit like Ephara where I give myself 4 upkeeps, or creatureless Progenitus, where everything aside from mana rocks costs 7 mana or more.

    And that’s the cool thing about EDH, trying to tweek your deck to make it as interesting as it can be, or taking a turd of a general and finding all of the tech to make it perform. I think it’s been mentioned on this cast back in the day, but generals are very much tiered like fighting games, or mobas, or first person shooters. The play style caters to the individual tastes and predilections and even the crappiest choice can sometimes do amazing things in the right situation. In Street Fighter parlance, Ryu will always be tier one, same goes for Lucio in Overwatch (barring any kind of nerfing), but I’m going to play E. Honda because I’ve played him since I was 13, and we share body types. I think that might be the perfect nerdy-ass analogy for my play style and abilities within Magic. I’ve been paying for so long and I’m good and have a depth and breadth of knowledge and experience, but I would much rather spam the punch button and Hundred Hand Slap some fools instead of learning unblockable combos or running tier one decks. I might snap pick Junkrat because I like his stupid style of explosions, explosions, explosions. When I succeed with one of those characters, that’s all I need. I do the same thing in EDH. I have deep, abiding, two-decade-long love for Dakkon Blackblade, even though he’s unimpressive when compared to other Esper generals. If I’m able to pull out a W, or make an impressive showing, that’s all that matters. Tiers be damned.

    This is running long. My stupid cards that I love are things like Flaring Pain and Insult//Injury, or creatures like Butcher Orgg. I love things that stop damage prevention, even if they’re not good. I love red, I love anti-fog tech. I have bought seven copies of Insult//Injury so far.

    I would definitely be down to share ideas and comments on Tapped Out. Mark was right, I go by Kinghonkey there as well.

  • Eshed

    “Bad Cards We Love” is one of my favorite segments, and probably a suitable mataphor for my deckbuilding. After all, I’ve always looked for ways to cast Lightning and summon Squirrels together in a “viable” EDH deck.

    • Mark Mahler

      “Bad Cards We Love” is definitely going to return at some point. Honestly, it’s more a matter of whittling down the number of bad cards into a doable segment than anything else.

      And, for the record, I think summoning Squirrels is probably the best game plan in EDH.

  • Eshed

    I love the concept you mentioned, “Personal Staples.” I have quite a few. Druidic Satchel is a card I’m always looking to include, and it’s actually the namesake for my dice-bag (which is, Mark, full of glass beads of varying colors and sizes). I’ve always wanted to blink a Meteorite with Venser, Gilded Lotus notwithstanding. I think Art is a major factor in the Personal Staple phenomenon, since mechanics when they’re good enough make for TRUE staples. My favorite Counterspells for example are Counterflux and Scatter to the Winds.

  • David Heizer

    Love the show and the segments.

    I love bad cards we love segment… Maybe take this segment to a more themed version like secret bad tech that we love… Lately I made an Oloro Deck and found 3 cards for it that made me so happy they are not good but I love them… Cleansing, Vile consumption and Breathstealer’s crypt these 3 cards are not “Personal Staples” however they make me giddy to play Oloro and see the choices other people make when they are forced to do so… I am sure there bad niche cards for every commander that make them a little more interesting.

    • Mark Mahler

      “Secret Bad Tech We Love” sounds like a great segment, David. I’m all over it.

      There are definitely cards in Commander that I include in decks just because they make me smile when I draw them (Breathstealer’s Crypt is right up there on that list, by the way). I think that’s why this is my favorite format, because it’s about love of the game, love of certain cards, and good times with good friends more than anything else.

      Elbrus, the Binding Blade might be the shining example of this category for me.

      • Josh Jurgensen

        I’mma second the desire to hear a “Secret bad tech we love” segment.